Thursday, December 11, 2008

Moisture on the brain

So I have spent WAY too much time the past two days researching humidifiers. The HVAC guys Wagner got estimates from recommended two possible units: a Honeywell True STEAM humidifier, or a Trane evaporative unit. Thanks to my time on the Piano Forum, I knew a little about basic types of humidifiers (pianos need very precise humidity control for a number of reasons), and I had a dim memory of some brands receiving greater praise than others. So I told Wagner I wanted to study the choices before making a decision.

Talk about a headache. While there are plenty of reviews of small portable humdifiers, there are very few objective reviews comparing different whole-house humidifiers. There are plenty of websites discussing individual brands, but they're all biased (published by the company selling the brand), and they all make their own particular brand sound like the be-all and end-all of humidifiers. Rather more troubling was the fact that I could find next to nothing about Trane humidifiers.

On the other hand, the True STEAM was getting rave reviews from a number of corners, including various HVAC and do-it-yourself forums. Apparently it is very effective because it heats water directly into steam, and thus converts essentially 100% of the water that flows through into humidity, as opposed to the evaporative type of humidifiers, which run water through a pad and thus as much as 2/3 of the water just goes straight down the drain. (This type in turn is infinitely better than the old-fashioned drum type of humidifier, which rotates a spinning pad on a drum through a standing pool of water and is thus prone to all sorts of bacteria and mold problems. Whatever you do, don't buy one of those types.)

The snag is that the True STEAM is a fairly new unit, introduced only in the past year or so, and thus with not much of a track record for longevity or reliability, and it also cost twice as much as the Trane. I also could find only one post talking about the cost of running the unit, and it mentioned that it raised their electricity bill by about $40 a month. That adds up to a lot over time.

But with the internet remaining scarily mute on the Trane, I didn't know if I wanted to spring for it. On the other hand, the Piano Forum (and other places which presumably knew more about humidifiers) also raved about the Aprilaire or Desert Spring units (both evaporative types). Of course neither of those were offered by the HVAC people we were having doing the furnace.

Then I noticed buried in some forum a post which asserted that Trane was the same as Aprilaire. Huh. I called the Aprilaire people and spoke to a VERY nice and helpful young man who was reluctant to confirm that they were identical but did confirm that Aprilaire's parent company also manufactures the Trane unit. I pressed him a bit on the issue, and he said that the main units were probably the same and that the main difference would be in how they were packaged (e.g., the humidistat supplied with it, etc.)

At that point I was leaning toward the Trane/Aprilaire, when I mentioned we were getting a high efficiency gas furnace for the addition. In that case, he said, we strongly recommend that you connect the humidifier to a hot water line. Because the furnace is so efficient, it doesn't run as much, and therefore the humidifier isn't operating enough. Using the hot water line would help it humidify better during the shorter time it was running. This, I knew, could be a big snag, because Wagner had only (thus far) run a cold water line over to the furnace room.

Uh-oh.

So then I called the HVAC people and asked them about it. I spoke with the technician who is installing our furnace, and I spoke with the owner of the company himself. They both said that while both humidifiers were nice, they preferred the True STEAM. I mentioned the operating cost issue, and the owner said that he had installed three of the units in his own house and did not notice a big change in his electric bill. I didn't know what to make of that. He wouldn't lie to me (would he?), but he definitely had a vested interest in selling me the more expensive unit.

Grapple grapple. So then I decided to go to the horse's mouth and call Honeywell directly and ask them how much their units cost to run. And here is where I get all irritated. Any Honeywell execs reading this, you should know this: Your customer service sucks. First, your website is hard to navigate, with some pages slow to load or resulting in the dreaded Error 404 (page not found) message. Worse, there is no customer service phone number posted under your contact information. There's just an email form where you can submit a question, but when I tried to do that and clicked "send," nothing happened.

Finally, I found a pdf brochure for the True STEAM linked through the site, and way at the bottom of the brochure in tiny 4 pt. font was a customer phone number. Heh heh. I dialed it, rubbing my hands and cackling evilly. But first I had to navigate three separate menus before I even got to the recorded voice that told me that my wait time "might exceed ten minutes." Then I was treated to a scratchy, poor quality audio recording of an instrumental version of "You Light Up My Life." I'm sorry, but the Honeywell person who designed that hold tape should be the first casualty of the economic downturn.

Finally, finally, I talk to a real person... who, judging by his accent, was sitting in a large call center in India. Before I can even start my question, he asks me for my telephone number, name, zip code, and shoe size. Just joking about that last one, but I finally got all snitty and asked "Why do you need to know all that?" "We want to ensure our call quality," was his reply.

Finally I got to ask my question: What is the typical operating cost of the True STEAM system? "Oh, I'm sorry, ma'am," he replied, "I can't discuss that. I can only talk about the various features of our products." This stumped me momentarily until I came up with a clever rejoinder: "Hmmm.... well, it occurs to me that the typical operating cost of your unit IS in fact a feature of your product."

"I'm sorry, ma'am, but it is impossible to predict how much it will cost to run. Say that I am in Texas. ['fat chance of that,' I think to myself] The cost of electricity and the weather conditions will make the operating cost of the True STEAM unit very different than what you might pay."

I begged him to just give me a ballpark range... was it a dollar or two a month? Forty dollars like the sole mention of it that I found? Or 100 dollars a month? He stubbornly refused to budge, and I ended the call much disgruntled.

So, at this point I'm leaning toward the True STEAM unit, simply because I do find the literature compelling and believe the people who say that it is more effective. I was finally swayed by something the HVAC company guy said, which is that moist air will migrate toward dry air, so the new humidifier unit should also help out with the rest of the house... and our current humidifiers do not do a great job of keeping the humidity high enough in the winter. The final straw was when he casually asked, "Say, didn't Mr. Wagner say you have a piano you were concerned about? This True STEAM would be better protection for it."

I am fiercely protective about my piano, so even if it costs more to install and run, I guess I'll go for the better unit. Perhaps growing weary of my changing my mind every couple of hours, Wagner told me to "think it over tonight" and let him know for sure tomorrow morning.

36 comments:

AnthonyB said...

Since you gave the lovely customer support guy your zip code then maybe they could set up a system that should be able to estimate how much the system would cost to run! :)

Monica K. said...

I agree... I really was quite annoyed with them, almost to the point of not wanting to encourage them by buying their humidifier!

Jerry said...

Hi Monica,

I was reading your blog about the Honeywell TrueSTEAM, because I am a high end residential architect in Chicago, and I was interested in finding out how it works, and your blog came up on Google. As far as how much it cost here are some things to keep in mind. The small unit is rated as a 7amp draw, which means that this unit will theoretically consume 770wats while in use. I would guess that on a small house of 2000sqft the 7amp model will be fine, and probably run 1/4 of the time in the winter months. The standard rule of thumb is that it costs about a dollar per watt for the electricity to operate an electrical device all year. If you use it half of the year and a quarter of the time it will cost about 97dollars to run.

I started looking into this because my house has a Generalaire Model 1137 Humidifier; it is a HVAC supply side mounted unit, flow through type with a fan. It only humidifies when my house is heating, and consequentially it never reaches the set point because the furnace heat up the space too quickly. I have plants which are very sensitive to low humidity, and am thinking about making a change. Generalaire makes a steam type unit as well, but it does not sound to be as good as the Honeywell. This unit is essentially a heating coil placed inside a reservoir of water. Once a year maintenance is required to remove mineral buildup; see link below.

In general I like Honeywell products, so if they are putting their name on this I would assume it work well; I hope my theory won't be proven wrong.

Hope this helps!

Jerry

http://docs.electronicaircleaners.com/Honeywell_truesteam_installation_video.wmv

Monica K. said...

Just saw your comment, Jerry, and THANKS!! That was very helpful. $100 or so a year is not bad at all to get adequate humidity. We're definitely going with the TrueSTEAM unit; it does sound like the best option with a high efficiency furnace that isn't going to be running all that often.

Unknown said...

Hi Monica,
Now that you have had the TruSteam installed how do you rate it? I live in NY, in a two year old new house and with this winter my second floor furnace set to 68, keeps going on and off. I'm thinking of installing the TruSteam, not sure which one, I'll probably install it somewhere in the master bath, since the furnace is in the attic where a water pipe could potentially freeze. My first floor has an Aprilaire, which I'll probably replace after this install. I'm hoping this will allow all to sleep better and perhaps lower my heating bill or at least offset the cost.

Monica K. said...

Hi John! The humidifier is installed, but the addition is still very much unfinished, so we haven't had the chance to try it out yet. It will be some weeks, I'm guessing, before we're in there.

Jerry said...

John, I would not recommend placing this directly in a space if that is your plan; it is designed to go on a supply furnace duct. There is another steam humidifier made by Generalaire that can be placed in a space; however it does not sound to be as simple to maintain as the TrueSTEAM. I would suggest replacing the first floor one with the largest TrueSTEAM model and running both of the furnaces with the fan on at all times to circulate the air. If this is wired properly it should operate even when the furnace is not heating. Hot air and also steam will always rise, and should make it up stairs. Depending on the size of your place this may be enough the 12 gallon model can accommodate 3000sqft. I should point out as well that I have yet to see the TrueSTEAM operate as this is new. I have a client in the process of installing one because of similar problems to you, and I should know how it is operating in the next month.

Go to www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com for more information. Jerry

Unknown said...

Hi Jerry and Monica,

I'm leaning to the Honeywell HM512VPIAQ - TrueSTEAM 12-gallon humidifier w/ VisionPro IAQ Control for the first floor. The only alternative from Honeywell is the HE365 Whole house Powered humidifier which is a 18GPD unit, but I believe it will only deliver 6GPD when factoring in that it only works with the heat on.

I tried calling 12 local companies from honeywell’s listed contractors and did not find anyone experienced with TruSteam. Those who did install them, had difficulty answering questions and told me they would need to talk to Honeywell. The previous approach I listed of installing the TruSteam in the Master bath and then remotely connecting to the attic has me concerned with condensation. Since the vents are in an unfinished/unheated attic and although it is well insulated and the vents are wrap in insulation condensation may still occur. So for now it looks like I'll focus on the install for downstairs and see if the humidity travels up and solves the second floor issue before revisiting that approach.

My house details are as follows:
NY, Single Family Home - 3400 sqft. Built in 2006, 2x6 exterior walls. Vinyl Siding. (SQFT Does not include finished basement. Basement heated by electric baseboards or wood pellet stove. Two vents have been opened for basement, for A/C use in summer. )

FIRST FLOOR HEATING/COOLING:
There is a carrier furnace in the basement controlled by one thermostat on first floor. One zone.

SECOND FLOOR HEATING/COOLING:
There is a carrier furnace in the attic to supply the second floor heat and controlled by one thermostat in master bedroom. One zone.

Each thermostat controls a separate A/C unit.


HUMIDIFIER
Currently an Aprilaire Model 400 is installed on the downstairs furnace, with a manual control humidifier where I need to change the setting based on the outdoor temperature.

We have all the signs of dry air: a lot of electric static and dry skin.


WOOD/CARPET FLOORING:
There is 70% wood or ceramic tile floors on first floor. The second floor is 90% carpeted.

CEILING HEIGHTS:
First Floor 9 foot ceilings and foyer is open to second floor. Living room has taller ceiling.
Second Floor 8 foot ceiling
Basement 9 foot ceiling.

Additional thoughts and questions

The humidity supposedly will flow upstairs. Not sure if I need to change the thermostat upstairs to somehow have the fan go one when humidity is called for downstairs to help pull the humidity up? Should the upstairs fan stay always on or will the humidity naturally flow up? Based on the Honeywell e-learning video I'll connect it to the cold feed, which is what I currently have, hot water would not be an issue if I needed it. Although, the TruSteam512 is for 3000sqft, I am hoping it will put out more humidity than the HE365.

That’s my best guess based on the information I gathered. Everyone feel free to offer your opinion, experience and guidance. I would like to get it installed now so I can test the system and then report my results back here. My current humidity is under 20%. Thank you!

Monica K. said...

Just noticed your comment, John. I've had the TrueSteam conncected and going now for a couple of weeks. I'm going to write a post about it soon, but the short story is that it is doing a fantastic job. Even in very cold temps (20s) and leaving the furnace thermostat set at 55 (the space is still unoccupied), the TrueSteam is maintaining the humidity right at 40%, no problem.

What I don't know is how the system will work when I start leaving the door to the addition open and whether the humidity will migrate to the rest of the house. But as of now I'm very happy with it.

Did you end up installing it in your house? How's it working out?

Jon from Nevada said...

Hiya Monica,

I appreciate very much finding your blog via google. I too have had troubles finding info on the honeywell.

We have one installed in our new house and I think it's wired wrong. Does yours work independant from the furnace, but use the furnace's fan?

Ours only works when the furnace calls for heat and our furnace doesn't run usually more than half the time so has never humidified the house past 25% or so.

Thanks in advance-Jon

P.S. Of course the installer says it's working perfectly and that's as good as it gets blah blah blah....

Jerry said...

Jon,
Sounds like your system is not wired properly; the steam unit should run independent of the furnace heat cycle. This is a new product and maybe the installer wired it like all other humidifiers are installed - to turn on when the heat cycle starts. Further, in their literature (http://customer.honeywell.com/techlit/pdf/50-0000s/50-1066.pdf) says that the tru steam is typically installed so that the humidistat will turn on the furnace fan when humidity is needed. After my initial post I decided to replace wetted pad on the humidifier I had, and maintained around 40% throughout the winter, and felt that was acceptable. It really is hard and potentially bad (humidity condensing in the walls) to expect more in northern climates. I did run a room one in my plant room to get 60%. John, I don’t know what else to say; you know your situation best and the largest steam unit may be your best option. Have you tried replacing the humidifier pad in your existing humidifier? One good thing - we all are almost over worrying about low humidity issues for the year. Jerry

Unknown said...

A note for Jon,

Not sure if you solved your problem of the True steam unit not turning on your furnace when it senses lack of humidity. The problem is that the VisionPRO thermostat is factory set to only humidify when the fan is already on or the furnace is calling for heat. If you want the humidifer to take control, you need to use the installer set up and change setup code 0374 to setting 1 in stead of 0. Check out the installation guide for more info.

Wash-Rinse-Spin said...

so what's the final verdict on the TrueSTEAM by Honeywell?

Nay Bagley said...

Great post! I am now researching my options. Any more to add on the Honeywell?

Unknown said...

We have been using our Truesteam whole house humidifier since mid October. Our electric bill did rise noticeably in the first month - about $50-60 higher than expected (previous years for the same time period). However, we live in Reno NV, probably one of the most arid places to live in the U.S., and with the start of heating season (we have a high efficiency gas furnace), the humidity levels in the house would be well under 20% without the Truesteam. With it, we are able to stay near 40%. Our comfort level is much better. The installer did say that in the first few weeks we should expect the unit to run more than it would later, once the house, furniture, etc absorbed what moisture it needed to - after that the unit would keep the humidity levels regular with less work. So we are awaiting our next utility bill to see whether this holds true.

We have hard water here in Reno, and the installer said that we should be vigilant about cleaning the unit, even more often than recommended, to protect it from deposits from the water building-up. All-in-all, we are happy with the change in our comfort level. It can be VERY dry here. Also, we do have a variety of wood stringed instruments (from floor harp to violin, and several in between) and a piano. A major reason we purchased this unit was to protect these instruments from being damaged by the dry air. The enhanced quality of air for our skin, breathing, and overall quality of life has been a wonderful added benefit.

The installer said these are new units and there is not yet much of a track record --- so we shall see.

It cost a LOT (over $1000) to buy and install this unit - but from what I hear, installation is tricky and the manuals that came with all state that only professionals should be doing the installs.

So for now - with just 2 months in, we are happy and feel healthier with the Truesteam.

I'd be interested in hearing about others' experiences with hard water and keeping the unit free of build-up, as well as monthly operating costs. Also, we were told not to run it in the summer months if we used the AC. I wonder if we could use it at night when the AC is not needed in the summer here?

Tom said...

I live in Chicago and installed the larger truesteam unit last year. I have noticed a significant increase in my electric bill so far this year. $197 for December 2009 vs. about $70 for a typical December. Our heat is natural gas so temperature is an insignificant component.
Here's the specifics:
House is about 2000 s.f.
Unit draws 1100 watts (confirmed on my watt-hour meter)when it's operating, and it's operating pretty much all the time. I have it wired and the DIP switches set to run the blower any time humidity is required, so my blower is running pretty much all the time as well. Typically try to maintain about 35% humidity when outside is 30 deg.

The calculation for power consuption goes like this:
1100 watts = 1.1 kilowatts (1100/1000)
If the unit is, in fact, running 24 hours a day multiply 24 x 1.1 = 26.4 kilowatt hours consumed per day.
Our total delivered cost for electric here is about $.14 per kwh. So the thing costs $3.96 to run per day or $110.00 per month plus added blower operating time.
i.e. it all adds up to a big problem.
I plan to give the unit the benefit of the doubt because we are doing a significant home renovation and we do not have 100% vapor barrier envelope.

Water quality good here, maintenance is a breeze. Other than the cost I like the TrueSteam.

Will post again if I learn more.

Jerry said...

My “rule of thumb” math is not too much different from yours; If I were to use your assumptions of running 24 hours per day every day and 1100w I would get $1,100 per year to run or $92 per month. I normally use this to tell someone how much it will cost to run lights in a room. It really sounds like you are getting allot of leakage if it is running 24h a day. I ended up not upgrading to a steam humidifier, and my 1600sqft place stays around 40% using an older type bypass type. Keeping a northern climate house humid is one of the hardest things to do. Good luck! Jerry

TravelingGarage said...

Honeywell has a cool operating cost calculator at this link:

http://www.forwardthinking.honeywell.com/tuneup

Scroll down to the "TRAIN" section and click on "Sizing and Operating Cost Calculator" and they have a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet to compare the cost between flow-through and TrueSTEAM.

TravelingGarage said...

It does look like the TrueSteam costs about $3 - $4 / day to operate.

I think they bias the defaults because they have the cost of natural gas at $20/1000 cu ft = $2/therm since 100 cu ft = 1therm. My natural gas is about $1/therm or $10/1000 cu ft in the calculation they use.

Thus the Flow-through is about 1/2 as much to operate according to spreadsheet.

TravelingGarage said...

The "TrueSteam Reference Guide" under the same link above and under the "TRAIN" section provides an excellent comparison of operating costs of different humidifier systems.

Tom said...

Surprised they are so up front about the cost. I came up with $4 per day on their calculator. I still like the concept. When my house is finally complete (winter of 2010-11 I hope)it should be super tight and maybe operating cost will be reasonable.

I think for most homeowners the operating cost will be prohibitive.

Unknown said...

I installed a truesteam in my house. It holds RH great, had to turn it down due to frosting t5he windows.

Watch out for hard water scale, I would recommend once a month cleaning if you have hard water in your area. I didn't clean it till end of season and the unit was loaded with scale. I had to work at cleaning the scale off the heating element.

Trey Hopson said...

Hi everyone! Wow. Thank you so much for putting some info on the product. I must say that having Edmonton HVAC in our house is very convenient. We did some renovation in our house too and humidifier is one most important things to consider. During winter, we really need a lot of heat. Edmonton has fine weather, I'm glad. But humidifiers are great help in keeping the right temperature in the house. I'll ask some people for more suggestions too. Thanks!

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Tom said...

After two years we gave up on TureSteam. I was ready for the increased electric bill, which was massive, but my 1800 s.f. tight house with 9 foot ceilings was never properly humidified with the unit (9 gallon model)and blower running 24/7.

Honeywell has done a better job of explainging how the increased electric cost is partially offset in your gass bill. Problem is it just didn't do the job.

Ultimately it was time to buy a scale filter ($45.00), and the water level sensor ($30.00)crapped out so it was a good time to give up. If you own one be sure to remove the water sensor and clean inside its' housing.

I also don't like the Honeywell position on professional installation and repair. One service call costs half the value of the thing so it is a throw away.

I would not recommend the product.

Felipe said...

Hello Tom and everyone

Did you already bought a replacement for your truesteam, Tom? If yes, which one? I also have a 9 foot and 2000sq/f home so I might follow your advice.

Also, I already have a whole house water filter and conditioner(like softener), so I don't think I'll have to change the filter from the humidifier so often(if i buy the truesteam). If you didn't have to change the filter so often, would you keep not recommending the truesteam?


Thank you

Tom said...

We installed a Honeywell HE 360 from Home Depot, it's the Aprilaire rip-off. Maintains humidity quite well. Not happy about the wasted water, but our water is pretty cheap here. I like the steam concept but still would not recommend the True Steam, the water level sensor was a repeat problem and the electric bill was tough to justify. Ultimately it did not keep the humidity up.

Tom said...

Felipe, contact me off-line, I have an idea for you. tomhoffmannn@gmail.com.

Unknown said...

HI Monica,
Thanks for your initial post. We are in a new home trying to make a decision on which unit to get. I am a bit frightened by what this does to our energy bill. You have now had this unit a good amount of time.Any final thoughts on how it holds up?

Unknown said...

Hi Monica,
Thanks for your inital post, very helpful. I am a little worried about the increase in hydro bill. You have had this unit a while now. Do you have any thoughts how its holding up and overall operating costs?

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